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Post by shakenbake24 on Feb 2, 2013 17:05:42 GMT -5
Okay, I am coming across a couple of issues in looking at signing bonuses. First, I have been referring to baseballprospectus.com in finalizing my salary cap for my team. However, Andrew just sent me a spreadsheet where Andre Ethier is making $18M in 2016 and on the baseballprospectus.com he is only making $16M. Which one are we going by? Same thing with Gordon Beckham. On the spreadsheet Andrew sent me he makes $2.925M this year but on the baseballprospectus.com website that i was told to refer to he is making $2.975M.
My only other issue is Adrian Gonzalez. His signing bonus per year is $857K. At the bottom of the spreadsheet that Andrew just sent me it says Boston is paying that. I do not think me or Scott should have to pay that.
Thoughts?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2013 17:50:44 GMT -5
the baseballprospectus website is cot's contracts. The majority of the people here took the numbers from their team's spreadsheet where each players' salaries were listed in an easy to view format by year
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Post by bxm701 on Feb 2, 2013 18:03:32 GMT -5
I disagree that no one should have to pay Adrian's bonus - every other players Signing bonus needs to be paid so why not his?
I don't agree with the signing bonuses in general but get that most people used sheets that accounted for it so its the easiest way to make everyone consistent.
Based on the logic weve used so far, I guess Scott should have to pay the signing bonus....?
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Post by bxm701 on Feb 2, 2013 18:05:15 GMT -5
Although that seems very arbitrary as if Adrian wasn't kept Scott would be off the hook for it (and had no part in the decision)....
That's a toughy, I feel like it should be paid but not totally fair to either guy.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2013 18:10:17 GMT -5
I'm split on this, but I say we go with the spreadsheet for consistency and ease
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Post by bxm701 on Feb 2, 2013 18:11:46 GMT -5
Meaning what? That Scott pays?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2013 18:20:28 GMT -5
maybe no one pays it. On the Dodgers spreadsheet it equals out to 21 million, so I don't think they should pay it. We just need to decide if we think its fair if Scott pays it.
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Post by Scott (Boston Padres) on Feb 2, 2013 19:28:50 GMT -5
Sorry all. Been out of the loop on this all day.
First off, no way I'm paying AGonz signing bonus.
Secondly, I set this league up specifically without any mention of signing bonuses in the Rules. None for majors, minors, or even amateurs when drafted. My full intention when setting up this league was to use the Cot's contracts site and the web page list for each team- not the spreadsheet links on each page called "salary obligations."
When I saw Pedroia as 13:$10M, 14:$11M or whatever it is listed on the Sox page, that's what I've been looking at all along. This is what I think we should all be looking at. It'll save all of us some cap money and we won't have to worry about who's paying whose bonuses when traded.
Let's all agree on no signing bonuses and they have no bearing on Diamond Duos. We use actual salaries. This is what I wanted when I created the league, put together the League Constitution as I pulled material from several different leagues, and invited you all to be part of it and asked each of you to "sign off" so to speak that you've read and understand the rules. I did not understand this element as it related to my league idea and left it (signing bonuses) out on purpose.
Strong feelings on this? I guess so. I'll go back and fix everyone's rosters accordingly if I have to.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2013 19:46:22 GMT -5
To start, I have no strong feelings on the whole signing bonuis thing. I don't really think Brett should pay what the Sox owe him and I dont think Scott should pay either. I dont know how many situations are out there like that, neither of my teams have anything like that.
I'm now beginning to understand why there was so much confusion about the salaries/arbitration years , etc if only a few of us were using the spreadsheets on that site. It is 10x easier to look at thing and get a good snapshot of the teams contract situations and I think it really explains the arbitration situations.
We just need to make sure everyone's roster is fixed before we start this auction.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2013 19:57:10 GMT -5
I agree we should be using the speadsheet. That's a joke that a team should have to pay bonus $$ for a player they didn't keep like A Gon. A Gon owner should be happy they get him a little cheaper.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2013 20:09:52 GMT -5
There is also going to be some issue with guys who were high draft picks and got a signing bonus plus a guaranteed salary.
For Example, Ben has Bryce Harper making 2M but his salary based on the page that is NOT the spreadsheet has his 2013 salary actually being 750k.
His new contract would be 13:$0.75M, 14:$0.9M, 15:$1M 16:$2M 17:$3M 18:$4M
Similar situation with Ackley on my team.
IMO, the easiest way to do this is using only the spreadsheet and in situations where another team is paying a portion of the salary just forget it and nobody pays it. I think we would all save a little money in our budget...some more than others maybe...but that just leaves more cash for everyone to use during bidding so it could just be a wash. Thankfully, this is the only time we have to worry about all this in our league
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2013 20:26:15 GMT -5
I agree. I had a similar situation with L.Martin. The decision was made that since he qualified as a minor leaguer I could put him in the minors and he's treated just like every other minor leaguer salary wise. In a case like Harper or Ackley you would use his listed salary in cotts and do the arbitration salary bump like I'll have to do with someone like Posey.
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Post by Scott (Boston Padres) on Feb 2, 2013 20:46:14 GMT -5
You're all confusing me more and more.
I agree, Harper's salary should probably be 750k this year. Is that listed on the Nationals salary Cot's web page, or is it on their salary obligations spreadsheet?
Wherever it says that, that's what we should use.
I might have to put up another poll. This has to be finalized by tomorrow. Will hide results until you vote this time (I know how to do that now!)
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Post by bxm701 on Feb 2, 2013 21:00:34 GMT -5
The only relevant question here is how many commissioners do we have in this league?
From my understanding its one, Scott, and Ill do whatever he says. I'm frankly getting tired of changing my salaries back and forth though as I just had Harper at what were now saying he should be at again before I changed it.
Ill say it again and again, there is no need to rush this. Decisions need to be made, constitution needs to be updated and people need to be informed before we go forward...no more everybody making their own decisions on the fly...
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Post by bxm701 on Feb 2, 2013 21:06:19 GMT -5
My opinion on the specific issue is that it really doesn't matter. I think our cap is if anything a bit high so there's not a problem with the extra money. Players like Harper are a value at whatever price regardless. I get the wanting to use the excel sheet because most used it so easiest was just to have the rest meet that standard. Simplest answer to all this is likely just keep the changes made and forego any bonuses being paid by other teams (ie. Scott doesn't pay Adrian). And obviously signing bonuses are transferred with the contract upon trades in our league.
I do think that is the easiest way since we've gone through this trouble already.
With that said though I could really care less either way. I just think we need a final decision, not even a vote. Just end it!!!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2013 21:06:46 GMT -5
I think everyone is in agreement that we will do what Scott says. There was just a lot of confusion on where we are pulling these salaries from. The rules said we were using Cots and there are two different sets of numbers. Nobody caught it until Brett today. Andrew was just trying to help get all the numbers straight based on what he (and a few other people) thought we were using.
I'm gonna pour an extra Balvenie tonight to get my mind off of Arbitration rules...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2013 21:10:48 GMT -5
This is what Cotts lists Harper at....
Harper, Bryce 5 yr/$9.9M (11-15) 13:$2,000,000 14:$2.150 15:$2.250 16:Arb 2 17:Arb 3 18: Arb 4
So I would think that Harper has a contract in place already for 13-15 and then he would get our aribitration esculators in 16-18.
Just talking out loud, and hopefully helping to provide clarity to the situation. As always I'll go along with whatever is decided
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Post by bxm701 on Feb 2, 2013 21:18:24 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2013 21:19:55 GMT -5
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Post by Drew (Chicago Blue Jays) on Feb 2, 2013 21:25:57 GMT -5
I am relatively indifferent on this, although I have already changed my numbers to the spreadsheet, so I would prefer to just go with that. It is definitely easier, as there is often not specific info on the Cots pages on arbitration years and other such things.
On a separate, but related note, what is the deal with KC Marlins? Is he going to be our league deadbeat? Still no salaries there.
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Post by Scott (Boston Padres) on Feb 2, 2013 22:37:33 GMT -5
Guys,
I've been dealing with a lot of stuff to get this league off the ground over the last few days, and I'm putting a lot of this stuff up for vote and getting ideas/opinions from all of you for most of it. And I thank you for that. I'll be looking for more too. That said, I want to make a call on this right here.
Yes, the rules said we would use Cot's. I NEVER even knew about those spreadsheets linked from each team page. Yes, those have great info and are a nice way to see when Arb years kick in. Please feel free to keep using them for that. But before I even put this league together, and from using that website in other leagues, and then in determining my 30 keepers and putting my Boston/San Diego roster together, I used the webpage itself. This is what I want all of us to use for each of our franchises. Like I said, if you don't want to go back and change your numbers again that's fine. I'll do it for you, at least to start the season. I need to look at all of them anyway. I am not going to use signing bonuses. I am not using the numbers on the spreadsheets.
When I look for Bryce Harper's salaries for the next several years, this is what I see:
11:$0.5M, 12:$0.5M, 13:$0.75M, 14:$0.9M, 15:$1M
These are his salaries! I'm not putting my team together based on bonuses added in. This is a fantasy league and guys, I just want it this way. Please let me know if you have a problem with this. I have to go back and change some of my players to what I had originally listed them as.
**After much back and forth with current Miami/KC owner, and no actions taken on his part after several promises, I now have to find a replacement owner for this juggernaut of a team. As you can hopefully tell, this salary debate is not at the top of my priority list, and the Initial FA bidding will now most likely not begin Monday night. I will be allowing the new owner to completely redo his list of keepers (up to 15 per franchise) and hope to have someone in place ASAP.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2013 11:14:20 GMT -5
After calling for simplicity to end many arguments, this just doesn't sit right. We already have 12 teams on the spreadsheet
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Post by Drew (Chicago Blue Jays) on Feb 3, 2013 11:38:32 GMT -5
That is my only question. If the main team page of Cots can not give full details (which it can't) then are we then to go to the spreadsheet? And if so, it seems like that will create further contradictions. I'm all for tossing out the signing bonuses, I just want us to be clear on where the authority lies in terms of contract determinations. Although I guess after we set them this time it may not matter much going forward.
On a separate note.... Damn I knew Jay was going to screw us. I'm ready to get rolling!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2013 11:47:35 GMT -5
All the contract info is on the team page of each team. After Scotts decision, the spreadsheet is only used to visualize arbitration years.
There will be some questions for specific players going forward, so I say we start a new thread to answer contract questions based on the new set of rules.
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Post by Scott (Boston Padres) on Feb 3, 2013 14:22:52 GMT -5
Drew, what do you mean the main page of Cot's doesn't give full details? It shows everything we need for year and salary. If I don't know when arbitration starts, then I can look at the spreadsheet.
Andrew, I realize you've been putting in A LOT of time on salaries, checking all rosters, uploading numbers to Fantrax, etc. Thank you! I can understand how this may not sit right. But I will update everything if need be. I don't know what spreadsheet you're using for all the teams because I haven't seen it. I would like to have it somewhere like on Google Docs so everyone can see it but not modify it. Everyone's team roster ProBoards page should mirror it.
Can you please send that to me and I'll update it and fix all teams' Fantrax pages too.
Nobody needs to worry about Jay. I'm confident I'll have a good replacement within the next day or so. It was the right move for our league. Yes timing sucks but we'll be better off in the long run. Drew's replacing of previous Jays/Cubs owner proves that.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards
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